This is a thread to generally discuss traction control.


Hudsonhawk initially posted this which sparked my interest. HH asked about KC, but also generally about motogp going down the same path as F1.
I find it hard to come to terms with how Casey Stoner has gone from one season of not being able to stay upright, to the next year of winning the world title.

He couldnt say upright in the 125's or the 250's....nor could he win a title.

Do the following links shed some light on how he won the title and is MOTOGP heading down the path of F1?

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/moto...an_my_250.html

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/moto...her_speed.html

This is from crash.net (And the first link that's above), with title along the lines of, my 250 was harder to ride than this!

The Italian has been rewarded for his loyalty to Hondain the quarter-litre class, where he has finished second to Aprilia's Jorge Lorenzo for the past two seasons, with a MotoGPride for 2008 - and Team Scot has merged with JiR to help make it happen.
'Dovi' and JiR Team Scot thus completed their first 48 laps at Valencia on Tuesday afternoon, where the 21-year-old set the 14th fastest lap time - 2.4secs behind MotoGP world champion Casey Stoner - but claimed his only difficultly was getting used to the engine braking.
"I found the RC212V easier to ride than my 250, the electronics control things very well," declared the Italian. "The power is good but there's not too much like the older 990cc bike, which I tried back in 2004. People ask about the difference between the 250 and the 800. The biggest thing is the completely different way the power comes in: with the 250 the power is high in the rev-range, with the 800 there is power everywhere.
"The electronics make a big difference. On every corner I can fully open the throttle and the traction control handles it – even on a bike with more than 100bhp more than my 250! If I did that on a 250 I would go flying in the air and it would hurt!" he smiled.
"I think that the electronics can be both good and bad, as sometimes I would like a bike that I could powerslide and perhaps one that would be a little more difficult to ride. The only difficulty I had today was coping with the engine braking system, the feeling is so much different to my 250cc two-stroke.
"Maybe tomorrow we will see if we start to change things. This is the start of a new adventure for me and I'm looking forward to the challenge of taking on the world's best riders in MotoGP next year," he concluded.
Today is the first day with a new machine for Andrea and it was quite positive I think," declared team director Gianluca Montiron. "If we compare the times Shinya Nakano was doing on this bike on Friday – 1min 34.5secs – Andrea was doing a 1min 34.7secs after just half a day on the bike, which is very impressive. What was also very positive today were his clear comments and feedback about the machine and how he felt on it. This is of vital importance to our team and to our partners such as Michelin and HRC."

And the second link is Colin Edwards saying why he thinks Schumacher got such a respectable lap time.

By Peter McLaren
Colin Edwards has explained how he believes it was possible for former seven-times F1world champion Michael Schumacherto ride a MotoGPbike just five seconds off the Valencia lap record.
Schumacher set his stunning time during the press and guest day immediately after the season-ending grand prix - and despite only limited sportbike experience. The test was also the German legend's first on an 800cc Ducatiand just his second ever MotoGP ride.

The former Ferrariace first sampled MotoGP power during a private test at Mugello in 2005, when he had lapped a much more sedate 15 seconds off the pace on a 990cc Desmosedici, so has the move to 800cc engines and increased reliance on electronics made the new-breed of machines too easy to ride?
Andrea Dovizioso certainly fuelled that debate after his own MotoGP debut at Valencia, by stating that his 250 was harder to control, but Edwards warned that it suddenly gets much harder as you approach the limit.
"These bikes are so advanced now - all you need to do is crank the electronics up to where you can't crash and you can go five seconds off the pace pretty easily. You just get in and nail it!" Edwards told Crash.net, when asked about Schumacher's lap time.
"But to find that last, four tenths say, you have to back the electronics off and really start to work it. It's like a gamble; play safe with the electronics and you'll be too slow. If everybody had the electronics turned up all the time then we would all be doing the same lap time.
"You have to tailor-make the electronics to suit your style," Colin revealed. "What Valentino [Rossi] uses, I don't use and what I use maybe James [Toseland] doesn't use. Every rider has his own tailor-made electronics for what he likes; how he wants it to spin, how he wants it to move. That's where the last few tenths are."

Tried to print the article, is proving beyond my limited computer skills, especially when I was nearly finished then deleted all of my hard work!

Anyway, I think it's dead scary hearing Dovizioso describe how easy the 800 is to ride. It just shouldn't be this way. I think what Hudsonhawk brought up, about how someone who was a constant crasher ends up being the most consistent rider for the entire season... Colin Edwards talks about how Schumacher was able to get the lap times he did on KC's bike because of traction control...
It just shouldn't be this easy.
It also throws out the window the whole concept of the rookies needing a year to be broken in. By the sounds of things, if they've scored a good enough ride, then the fight is on from the start!
Being the premier class, these bikes should be the beasts from the past... hard to handle, only a master can win on one of them... now it sounds like any of us could get on and have a go... very disappointing... and I'd sure go for it, too, on a track, knowing my bike will save me from any errors I might (and probably will) make... like KC... perhaps the races where he did nothing much were races where he was nervous so he cranked up the traction control just so he wouldn't fall off... where is the skill in that? Where is the talent and the man out there on the track alone, him and machine, his smarts, his machine's power and durability... and nothing else!
We've heard Rossi say how against traction control is... Andrea's comments really, really show why. Scary stuff.

this whole traction thing is really interesting, very simpky because I think it provides for oppurtunities for all types of racers. I mean if Schumy could do that on KC's bike... he couldnt do that before....

ofcourse it becomes artificial after a while, yes even a rider with very limited experience can drive a big and high powered bike like it was cake walk... but it opens up the door for common people with imited experience to feel like real riders....

there, my 'looking at the positive side of things' is done.

yes the whole traction control and stuff is jus making the sport more and more like a video game in real life. I mean in a few years they might just replace these guys with nothing and race the bikes using remote control.

Well, this theme is like a blade with two razors (probably not the right way to express what I mean in EN, but you got the point I hope).
First of all the TC is there for the safety, which of course is the most important thing for the riders. So this is a BIG + in the TC`s column.
On the other hand it mugs the sport and it`s so not fare! Why should somebody, who can barely ride, be on the top of the sheets?!?
I`m sorry if I had somehow disturbed you, mates, with my silly, silly thoughts. If I was wrong somewhere, correct my mistake, please

I think Vale has covered this several times himself - all the electronic aids are great for the manufacturers when it comes to bike development but are actually dumbing down the sport. Where is the excitement of the racing if any monkey can get on the bike and all they have to do is hang on tight and they could do quite well regardless of a total lack of skill. May as well just have remote control bikes and do away with the riders all together - now what could be safer than that? I think something about the sport would be lost somehow.
It is just a case of coming to a compromise situation where the manufacturers and engineers can tinker a bit but the rider's skill is still of paramount importance.

Totally agree with you Jackie

It is important to remember that all these electronic aids are what have driven many fans from F1 and the lack of these aids is what has made motoGP so appealing. We all know that Ducati gave up mid 2006 to concentrate on 2007. They had the jump on everyone. Will this be be how manufacturers will start to gain an advantage over one another? They sacrifice one year to yield a better result the following and its worked for ducati.
Schumacher recently did to MotoGP what rossi did to F1 when he test drove. It embarrassing to say the least, especially for KC. It would have been funny to have shumacher compare his times on the M1...LOL. Shumacher finally did what he couldn’t do on a 990cc bike but add in all the aids and he is embarrasingly quick....much much quicker than previously.
So will manufacturers start to control our sport? Before we know it riders start searching for the only advantage they can get over one another.....the best products...tyres all of a sudden become very important....talent starts to take a backseat.....everyone wants a ducati. Just my thoughts people….

I mean in some races KC was winning by 30 seconds…..This is F1 starting to rear its ugly head, except we are on 2 wheels and we had an exciting and competitive sport. F1 fans were envious….

It's blantantly obvious to me. How do you go from crash test dummy one year to world champion the next. In the right place, at the right time is all i can conclude. I mean its not like KC developed the bike…..he turned up and bang he was fast from day one. Its all about the machine people….and Rossi’s antics seem to be playing this tune.

I asked this question in the Yamaha web site Questions to Jeremy Burgess....here is what his reply was:


Question from: Angela O'Hare
Do you think all the electronics used in today’s MotoGP bikes gives the lesser talented rider more chance to win than in the past?
ANSWER:
No, not really. The lesser talented rider isn’t going to have electronics that make the bike go faster for him. The difficult job for the rider nowadays is the feedback he needs to give to the team. We can interpret a lot from the data but the data can’t feel the motion the rider feels. The data can’t see what the rider sees and feels; it just records. So the rider still has to give enough information to the team in order to make the bike work well. I don’t think it makes the job any easier. But all in all, the level of competition is so good it is the man who makes the least mistakes over 25 laps that will eventually win the race.

thanks for that Ang...

no offence....but this is a serious reply from JB.

i wonder if he could answer why F1 is banning traction control. FACT..it ruined F1....machine is always greater than man....and electronic aids became a money pit in F1....motogp hasnt learnt much from F1 now has it....at the moment it is who has got the jump on the others in terms of aids....soon it will become a case of which manufacturer has the biggest wallet......

Seems the reply doesnt answer the question anyway. no one is questioning that feedback isnt required....any competent rider can supply feed back....but electronic aids definately take the talent factor away....when riders are under pressure, they crack and make mistakes....electronic aids control the riders over reactions, thus instead of playing in the gravel traps they find themselves on the podium. RACING will be the casualty of all these aids....time will and history of F1 is evidence of this.

You know its funny, but didnt F1 take a close look at motogp and what was making it such a success......how thick can dorma be!!!! F1 was envious at the close racing of motogp. this year enter traction control and what happens...boring races, bar a few.

An average rider with the best bike will always leave a great rider on an average bike scratching their head when you introduce electronics.

Oh and if its a question of safety to whoever raised that point previosuly....the 800's with traction control are more dangerous than the 990's without traction control....simply due to the much higher corner speeds they carry. Rarely do you crash in a straight line at 350km/h....most riders come off in corners.