I think I agree with hudsonhawk here in that JB has not really answered the question asked in this thread - it is not about the feedback the rider is able to give to the team versus the data which can be gathered electronically - it is about the electronics that cover up for the riders mistakes and over-enthusiasm and, in my view actually have a damping effect on true skill and control.
I also disagree that it should be the man who makes least mistakes who wins, I think it should be the one who is able to push things just that little further than the others without losing control.
Sorry, but in my view JBs answer says it all - electronic aids will ruin racing. All the riders have to do is hang on and not make any mistakes, they don't have to do anything exciting or risky, just hang on tight and you are in with a good chance....how boring is that for the spectators? You might as well strap a stuffed monkey to the bike. It would have to be a very cute-looking stuffed monkey to compete with Vale and his skills to retain my interest.

Ok! But I still don't understand why Loris couldn't be second on WC, though!

And why was Schumi so fast riding KC's bike??????

I will only swallow that KC is so good as everyone was saying when he and Vale changes bikes! Before that , for me, he won the championship because his bike and tyres were perfect not because he's a perfect rider, point!!!!! All that he had to do was to stay in his bike and don't hit the sand!

I wish MotoGP comes back to 2002, 03, 04... even 2006! I'm not liking 800cc and all that "robot programs" on bikes! Even F1 was more exciting this year! It had 3 riders running to catch the title until its last race!

And winning by 30 secs of advantage is funny only when Vale does that because he holds all other riders close to him till last lap and then he takes the time he wants!

Gi

PS: I also don't like that F1 talk between the rider and the team!

I think it is an important debate to have. They can say 'till the cows come home that TC doesn't help a lesser rider win races, but we are not idiots out here & we can see the difference.

I proposed that they allow full traction control only on bikes set up with rain tires. This would make wet races even more fun to watch and safer for the riders.

An interesting argument against banning traction control was made by someone responding to my proposal. He said :

You can't turn back technology. Imagine if when they moved to dual disc brakes from the old drum brakes, all the fans started to protest that it made braking and turn entry too easy...

I'll admit that it is somewhat absurd to imagine racing today with drum brakes, or dual spring shocks, for that matter.

Maybe we'll just have to accept the technology, and hope/wait for the day when all the teams will reach the same level with it. Only at that point will the riders start to find ways to push beyond it.

Unfortunately, it means that MotoGP will races will be dead-boring to watch for a while...

With regard to previous poster's comments about 800's being more dangerous than the 990cc bikes, due to their faster corner speeds... This may be true and it may explain why the riders themselves are not protesting the use of traction control technology.

TC is a safety issue.Reducing the risk of a highside in the corner.where the 800cc is faster. -- Edwards from a rrw article - "These days we start a lot of Gps with healthy grids.In years past I don't know how many times guys like Schwantz,Rainey and Doohan rode with broken arms and legs.The technology definitely makes it safer."Suzuki crew chief Tom O'Kane - "I see it solely as a safety issue.I don't care what kind of traction control you've got,if you open the throttle on one of these things at maximum lean you better know what you're doing,or it'll spit you off.I think traction control has been over-estimated by people who don't ride these bikes." -- The teams can do what they like with tc.But the engine cuts reduce power.Too much tc and you will be slow.It's about how you get into the turn.The bike can't get you into the corner any better and it can't load the suspension for you,all rider.As for Casey only staying on because of tc, 80% if not 90% of his crashes last season were from losing the front end.I hate to break it to you but tc doesn't do anything to keep you from tucking the front end.It's more about front end felling from the bike and tire.This package works better for Casey's style.And about the lesser riders,read again what Edwards said about schumi.You can turn up the tc and go pretty good but you won't win any races.you have to turn it down to find the fastest times.Because engine cuts reduce power.

Ummmm plain and simple really, brakes are not an electronic aid. If they added ABS then yes this point is valid.....but improving the braking characteristics in the above example it is still controlled 100% by the rider.

This point is interesting. Loris makes KC shine really. But then again Loris has always been a hot and cold performer. Much rumor centred around the fact he had a baby and riders slacken off after having children. Did Loris believe Ducati wouldnt dump him....was he just crusing....who knows. Now they have signed Marco Melandri....another hot and cold performer....

i dont know how a rider can improve on an electronic device that can make 1000 calculations per second....and i repeat, F1 (the pinnacle of motorsport) has dumped traction control.

CB 46 you make some valid points, though i am sure KC has had his fair share of high sides in motogp, as he did in 250 and 125. He always had a problem staying upright. Everyone said he was fast but he had to stay upright AND i dont think you just rock into one season and just come good. Remember in 2006 he crash 14 times, the most of any rider. Big change to winning the WC in 2007. Something has helped him....im not saying its all TC...sure ducati played a part. What i really want to say is that RACING wise, 2007 was the boring, and i see TC ruining it for spectators.

Yes Colin said turn up the TC and you can go quick, but he is refer only to Shumi. But the point is that TC is a massive aid because if it helps someone like shumi improve his time by 20 sec, then imagine what it can do for the true riders. It builds confidence obviously, shumi is a classic example.

I strongly disagree that TC slows a rider down when you are refering to those on the grid. If this is the case why have it!! F1 ran TC 24/7. Now they are flicking it. They got TC down to a fine art that it was clearly hindering racing. TC removes the human element of racing. Electronic devices calculate situations 1000 times faster than the human brain so i doubt TC slows you down.

Can we really believe everything that teams and riders say? Manufacturers would want TC because they cant all have a rossi and doohan is retired!!! The riders and teams are just being diplomatic....and if their manufacturer develops the best aid, hence bike and their rider is half talented, then its a win win situations for the whole team. The rider suddenly becomes an overnight genuis/success ....sound familiar to 2007.

if you work in an industry, regardless of what it is, and you are as high profile as these people, you dont speak negatively about your employers or your industry or where it is heading (motogp case it is down the path of electronic aids). I mean how many people high up in the tobacco industry come out and say smoking is bad. They just duck, weave and bypass the question and in the process answer a question that was never asked in the first place...a classic case of misguiding. So remember that riders are bound and limited by expressing their true feelings. Sad but true.

P.S - if dorma is so interested in safety....why did we go to 800's where conrner speed is greatly increased. Sounds more dangerous, but atleast pedrosa can wrestle an 800 with more ease....LOLLL

When we think about electronics aid on a Motogp bike, we must think that the development is follow by Aerospace Engineers, it's not the electronical components of our microwave we are speaking on...

But..

In my bad english I try to explain you what's Marelli box has inside.
In italian room there's a post by Nicoletto that explains very well the Desmosedici system, a system very different than all others, cause developed by Ferrari F1 Racing department in many years of work.

Ok.

What's Stoner value driving his bike? FAITH!
He has a great faith in his bike.

But why? Pedrosa hasn't, Vale hasn't or Melandri hasn't?
No. Simply the computer inside the box they have it's different, it's more dedicated to the normal electronic aid way.

Now, we think about a straight, I choice Mugello's, and we are KC riding the first part of this. The speed raises very quickly and in few seconds we are close to the action that in Italy we call "unplug", so turn off the gas and start to braking.
The computer on our Ducati has the data selected in each session of practice (from 20gigabyte every session). The computer received additional data from the GPS system (Global Positioning System ): through a connection with 3 satellites, the computer knows by trigonometry, the exact position on track where we are.
The sensors of roll, picth and yaw give additional data too, and computer knows the situation on the three-dimensional plan (fig.)



So, we must know that computer has inside his "brain" the right data to drive the "perfect trajectory" at next corner at the end of the straight, the S.Donato corner.
In italian we call this count "the perfect manoeuvre": closer to this count the rider could drive, better will be his performance.
In the past he must do all only by his right hand, on the gas, and talent.

Well.
We are to the start of "unplug", very close to the corner.

The computer knows our position before we are there, and knows we need a braking of joule "x" , engine on 44% (for example), and throttle to 9%...ok..the computer starts the lay out.
During the braking the satellites tell to the Marelli box where we are in the corner (microseconds) and sensors tell how much we are pushing on the rear brake, the front brake, how is the grip on the rear tyre, how much the bike is lean and if it's sliding or not etc..etc..
The computer prepares what we need for the next second after this moment.

It's not important where are my tyres on: I can brake and open the gas always as I wish, in track or out.
The box will give to the bike the right parameters to stay close to the perfect trajectory or cuts the power if something it's wrong, before it happen!

If we are in practice, we can come back to the box and learn by data downloaded, if we started the procedure too much soon, if the bike was too much in external way approaching the corner..etc..
So we can say to our engineer:"ok I want 2 points more in corner two and one less in corner 3.." that is the difference counted from computer to be closer to perfect manoeuvre.
After the adjustments, next run, we often have the pole, many poles often every lap.

The other riders they can only see us while we're going to victory.
And if our teammate hasn't the same system we have, we say goodbay to him too...a lot of trust in our bike system it's all we need and good tyres.
All riders in the motogp, they drive the bike very well: a little advantage it's a great advantage, everyone could be on the bike.

At the end, if we have good tyres...if we haven't bad tyres, better, we become world champions.

Next time will be a japanese robot?

Way cool post, MAK!
Holy F**k, who knew it was this bad????
Dunno how KC can say anything EVER again! That is phenomenal that it's that advanced. Literally like following a text book.
It's all very exciting, but unless everyone is coming from the same page, it's not so exciting. ANd yes, a robot is the last piece to be added. As it is, sounds like any mindless little tosser could get on one, and as long as he pays attention to the computer, he'll do okay. Not interesting, and well,

IT'S JUST NOT RACING!

You don't know that (it's true what I'm saying!!) sometimes Matteo Flamigni, electronics engineer of Vale, and Burgess, they think the computer of the M1 it's corrupted.

He said to Valentinik at Yamahafest:"Sometimes we have data that are very strange. They indicate something strange in driving......many parameters tell us that rider is fighting against the computer's count! But what is incredible, the rider could driving faster than computer's choices: the computer don't understand, believes anything is wrong and make him slowly! But a modern Motogp bike can't be drive without computer cause many many sensors and important mechanisms that computer checks "

At the end they discovered that Valentino, without computer, is the rider who is the closest to "perfect trajectory", 96%.


"Normally a great driver has 89-90% of the perfect count.
The trouble is that Valentino has the 96% following different ways in track than computer choices and the electronic box can't understand the driving, and sometimes indicates wrong data. We can't turn off: the bike must be furnished by a computer for all the job it must do on."

Do you remember Pedrosa? The launch control was wrong and the computer of his Rcv didn't check the start up..Pedrosa's bike left off without control.

So, Vale drives a computer that often can't understand "the genius" and makes him slowly than he could.

very intesting..
never heard about that!

thanx for sharing MAK!

It's my work.